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24" Pro - New Tablet. Not happy. List of issues.

Cintiq and Cintiq Pro
ImperialWalker
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu 10. Sep 2020, 08:03

24" Pro - New Tablet. Not happy. List of issues.

Postby ImperialWalker » Thu 10. Sep 2020, 08:28

I was hoping today was going to be a joyous day. A day where my drawing would level up with my new Wacom 24" Pro.

As a Canadian, I expected this $3000 beast to make my Intuos 4 look like drawing with a baseball bat on a sandy beach, but it turned out to be a noisy, frustrating experience. I am thinking of making a proper review going over issues like inconsistent texture on the screen, distorted screen from the coating, the fan noise and the "virtually not parallax" claim, but for right now I have a few issues that I need to see if I can fix before making the choice whether to keep it or not.

PC Specs

Aorus Z370 Gaming 5

3.7 GHz Intel i7-8700k

16GB Corsair Vengeance Ram

EVGA GeForce 1080 Ti
24" Asus displays x2
macOS High Sierra

1. Pen Calibration

The first issue I am having is pen calibration. When I open the calibration tool, it does not give me the option to select the Wacom for calibration. It defaults to the default ASUS monitor. The only way to select the Wacom is to make it the primary display, then I can select and calibrate it.

The problem is that it seems to lose the calibration after a reboot or if the monitor goes to sleep. I will start drawing and it seem the cursor is misaligned. In order to calibrate it again I have to go through the process.

Not only that, but is often seems to mess up the screens completely throwing the cursor totally off by about a mile, only to have it correct itself about five minutes later.

2. Remove Sleeping

I was attempting to use the remote but found it to be super lazy. It seemed to shut itself off after a few moments forcing me to have to turn it back on before I could press one of the buttons. It seems a bit odd that if you're sitting there doing some drawing for a while, the remote just decides to go for lunch. If I have to turn it on each time, I may as well just use the keyboard...

Speaking of the remote. The magnets are terrible.

3. The Biggest Fan!

I've set the tablet to "LOW" fan mode, but it seems the fans want to turn on even when the display isn't in use. For example, I'm sitting here typing this on my other monitor (a few moments ago I was watching the Dune trailer) and the fans kick into gear for no reason. Nothing is actually happening on the monitor, but it feels the need to fill the room with the sweet spinning.

4. Pen Lag

I realize this is a "feature" based on how some of the Wacom reps have addressed it, but does anyone know if this is actually a solvable issue or is this hardware just flawed in that respect? The mouse by the way does not lag at all, so the tablet is capable of 1:1 cursor/device, but it seems there is some built in lag between the pen and the tablet.

I really hope this isn't just some limit in the tech. If so, Wacom needs to go to a powered stylus so we can draw in real time, instead of drawing in the future.

5. Stacked Displays

This is more of a Mac issue, but I have my Wacom on the desk below the primary monitor. Apple didn't account for this and it puts the dock at the bottom of the Wacom. I don't want this. Is there any possible way to make the Wacom a secondary monitor without having to arrange it in settings to be on the right, left or above?

...

Thanks for all your help and advice. I hope I can sort these out or it might be back to the Intuos 4.

wacom5
Posts: 1196
Joined: Tue 8. Aug 2017, 14:35

Re: 24" Pro - New Tablet. Not happy. List of issues.

Postby wacom5 » Fri 11. Sep 2020, 13:10

Hi,
So you have a custom PC running Mac OSX right? Just to be clear, this is not an officially supported solution. Although, on paper everything should work just fine, there could be issues from this setup that we cannot account for. Does the same happen with Windows?

Now to address the other topics you listed:

1.
Not sure which version of the Wacom Driver and Mac OSX you are running but make sure you have the latest version installed and that you followed the Mac OSX setup steps in case you have Mojave or Catalina
If you have to calibrate your monitor often then something is not right with OS. You shouldn't need to setup the Cintiq as Main Display to be able to calibrate it in a normal setup. Once you manage to successfully calibrate, your Parallax issues should be fine.

2.
This is implemented to conserve battery on the remote. Unfortunately there is no way to turn it OFF. Normally the remote should wake up by just pressing one of the buttons. That you need to flick the switch to restart the connection and the pairing again indicates there is an issue on the Driver / OS level.
Regarding the Magnets, if the remote is not holding properly, you need to contact Support and open a support ticket.

3.
Even with the "Low" settings the fan can still generate some noise, this is true but it should be within perfectly tolerable levels. This is something that cannot be improved further however.

4.
What you see as Pen lag is just the time the computer takes to read and translate the pen input data and show it on the display. Of course there will be a delay. You also have this delay with a mouse but you don't see it because a) it is relative and not absolute positioning, and b) you don't use your mouse on top of the screen. Mind also that some drawing applications have "line smoothing" features which can also increase the perceived lag.

5.
That should not be a problem: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202351
Need immediate help? Contact our Support: https://support.wacom.com

ImperialWalker
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu 10. Sep 2020, 08:03

Re: 24" Pro - New Tablet. Not happy. List of issues.

Postby ImperialWalker » Wed 16. Sep 2020, 13:26

Thanks for getting back to me.

wacom5 wrote:Hi,
So you have a custom PC running Mac OSX right? Just to be clear, this is not an officially supported solution. Although, on paper everything should work just fine, there could be issues from this setup that we cannot account for. Does the same happen with Windows?


Correct. I understand this, yes. I am willing to concede that it could be contributing to some issues. I would have to set it up in Windows and check.


wacom5 wrote:1.
Not sure which version of the Wacom Driver and Mac OSX you are running but make sure you have the latest version installed and that you followed the Mac OSX setup steps in case you have Mojave or Catalina
If you have to calibrate your monitor often then something is not right with OS. You shouldn't need to setup the Cintiq as Main Display to be able to calibrate it in a normal setup. Once you manage to successfully calibrate, your Parallax issues should be fine.


I am on High Sierra using the latest Wacom drivers. I've followed the steps as instructed. What seems to be happening is that if I open the calibration tool, it only allows me to select my ASUS monitor as it is the primary display. I am assuming that the WACOM must be selected to calibrate it? But, if there is no option, then the only way to force the driver to allow me to select the pen display is to make it the primary.

wacom5 wrote:2.
This is implemented to conserve battery on the remote. Unfortunately there is no way to turn it OFF. Normally the remote should wake up by just pressing one of the buttons. That you need to flick the switch to restart the connection and the pairing again indicates there is an issue on the Driver / OS level.
Regarding the Magnets, if the remote is not holding properly, you need to contact Support and open a support ticket.


It does not. It will stay on for a few moments then it will go to sleep. Pressing the buttons does not wake it up. The only way to get it to connect again is turning it on manually. As for the magnets, there is nothing that can be done because the design of the display is such that the magnets within the display do not physically go all the way to the top or bottom. So, if you position the remote in a natural spot near the bottom of the display, there are no actual magnets there to hold the remote sturdy. The only solution is a redesign where magnets are placed near the top and bottom, not just the middle.

wacom5 wrote:3.
Even with the "Low" settings the fan can still generate some noise, this is true but it should be within perfectly tolerable levels. This is something that cannot be improved further however.


Well, I supposed compared to standing next to a 747 or listening to a baby cry in a stuck elevator it is tolerable. I mean no offence but, "perfectly tolerable" is pretty subjective. Sure, they may be tolerable when you've got headphones on and have Neil Diamond cranked up, but if you're trying to record a video or stream, the fan noise can be intolerable. I understand it cannot be improved, but it is a disappointing design.

wacom5 wrote:4.
What you see as Pen lag is just the time the computer takes to read and translate the pen input data and show it on the display. Of course there will be a delay. You also have this delay with a mouse but you don't see it because a) it is relative and not absolute positioning, and b) you don't use your mouse on top of the screen. Mind also that some drawing applications have "line smoothing" features which can also increase the perceived lag.


This is interesting because my Intuos 4 has no lag. The line keeps up with the cursor without any delay. Yes, if I turn on smoothing or "correction" in Clip Studio Paint, it can cause a delay. Again, you say, "of course there will be a delay" as though that is something I am supposed to just know. My expectation is that if I am drawing on a screen, that the marks I make are 1:1.

The cursor lagging behind as the tablet, pen and computer sort things out says to me that this is the wrong technology for these displays. For example, the pen on the iPad pro does not lag at all, so perhaps the solution moving forward is powered pens or internal processing in the WACOM that reduces or eliminates this lag.

You have to admit, a pen tablet in which the very thing it is designed to do (draw exactly as I draw) having a pen lag seems like an odd thing to not address. If you strip everything out (USB, attachable computer, 4K monitor, "paper feel", microphone jack, etc.) the one job this tablet has is to draw, in real time, what I am drawing. If it can't do that and I have a disconnect between what I am drawing and what I am seeing, then my 10+ year old Intuos has the price and functionality advantage.


wacom5 wrote:5.
That should not be a problem: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202351


Try it at work. Take your display and your Wacom and arrange them one over the other. Where does the menu go and where does the dock go? Can you put the dock on your primary display and not the WACOM? As far as I know, this is not possible, which is strange as this seems like 99% of the setups out there.

Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to address my concerns.

wacom5
Posts: 1196
Joined: Tue 8. Aug 2017, 14:35

Re: 24" Pro - New Tablet. Not happy. List of issues.

Postby wacom5 » Thu 17. Sep 2020, 10:42

ImperialWalker wrote:I am on High Sierra using the latest Wacom drivers. I've followed the steps as instructed. What seems to be happening is that if I open the calibration tool, it only allows me to select my ASUS monitor as it is the primary display. I am assuming that the WACOM must be selected to calibrate it? But, if there is no option, then the only way to force the driver to allow me to select the pen display is to make it the primary.

The Cintiq shouldn't need to be the main screen to be able to calibrate properly. If you open the Wacom Tablet Properties and select the Calibrate tab under the pen option it will either default to the connected Wacom Display device (CP24 in your case) or show you a dropdown list of available devices. This is completely independent from whatever the display setup is. Extended or mirrored / duplicated is irrelevant. If it is not working like that, then something is stopping the driver from properly detecting there is a Wacom Display connected. Try a different video connection (you have all these options with HDMI, Display Port and Thunderbolt) and try running on Windows as well to see what happens.

ImperialWalker wrote:It does not. It will stay on for a few moments then it will go to sleep. Pressing the buttons does not wake it up. The only way to get it to connect again is turning it on manually. As for the magnets, there is nothing that can be done because the design of the display is such that the magnets within the display do not physically go all the way to the top or bottom. So, if you position the remote in a natural spot near the bottom of the display, there are no actual magnets there to hold the remote sturdy. The only solution is a redesign where magnets are placed near the top and bottom, not just the middle.
Interesting that was not my experience with the EKR so far. As written in the manual:
The ExpressKey Remote will go to sleep if unused for a short period of time. To wake it, press any key. If it will be unused for more than a few hours, turn it off using the Power slide button to preserve the battery

As for the magnets, this is something that we will need to improve for the next generation.

ImperialWalker wrote:Well, I supposed compared to standing next to a 747 or listening to a baby cry in a stuck elevator it is tolerable. I mean no offence but, "perfectly tolerable" is pretty subjective. Sure, they may be tolerable when you've got headphones on and have Neil Diamond cranked up, but if you're trying to record a video or stream, the fan noise can be intolerable. I understand it cannot be improved, but it is a disappointing design.

Your are right, it is subjective. My experience so far has been in our quiet office with someone sitting directly on the opposite side of my desk, with the back of the Cintiq Pro 24 facing towards me. I cannot hear it at all, even without the using the "low" setting. Our office is pretty quiet but I suppose in a home studio or a closed single person office, the perception of noise may be different.

ImperialWalker wrote:This is interesting because my Intuos 4 has no lag. The line keeps up with the cursor without any delay. Yes, if I turn on smoothing or "correction" in Clip Studio Paint, it can cause a delay. Again, you say, "of course there will be a delay" as though that is something I am supposed to just know. My expectation is that if I am drawing on a screen, that the marks I make are 1:1.

The cursor lagging behind as the tablet, pen and computer sort things out says to me that this is the wrong technology for these displays. For example, the pen on the iPad pro does not lag at all, so perhaps the solution moving forward is powered pens or internal processing in the WACOM that reduces or eliminates this lag.

You have to admit, a pen tablet in which the very thing it is designed to do (draw exactly as I draw) having a pen lag seems like an odd thing to not address. If you strip everything out (USB, attachable computer, 4K monitor, "paper feel", microphone jack, etc.) the one job this tablet has is to draw, in real time, what I am drawing. If it can't do that and I have a disconnect between what I am drawing and what I am seeing, then my 10+ year old Intuos has the price and functionality advantage.

But it has lag. It's just not as perceptible because the pen nib is not directly on screen as it is with a Cintiq. A slight delay can always be expected but perhaps you see more than usual due to your specific setup? The iPad uses a completely different type of pen technology which requires a battery on the Pen and a connection with the iPad via Bluetooth. And there is still lag on the strokes with the Apple pencil even if nearly imperceptible.

ImperialWalker wrote:Try it at work. Take your display and your Wacom and arrange them one over the other. Where does the menu go and where does the dock go? Can you put the dock on your primary display and not the WACOM? As far as I know, this is not possible, which is strange as this seems like 99% of the setups out there.
I have done this before and it is possible. You need to drag the bar from the main display to the second display.
Need immediate help? Contact our Support: https://support.wacom.com

ImperialWalker
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu 10. Sep 2020, 08:03

Re: 24" Pro - New Tablet. Not happy. List of issues.

Postby ImperialWalker » Sun 20. Sep 2020, 11:55

Hey, thanks again.

wacom5 wrote:The Cintiq shouldn't need to be the main screen to be able to calibrate properly. If you open the Wacom Tablet Properties and select the Calibrate tab under the pen option it will either default to the connected Wacom Display device (CP24 in your case) or show you a dropdown list of available devices. This is completely independent from whatever the display setup is. Extended or mirrored / duplicated is irrelevant. If it is not working like that, then something is stopping the driver from properly detecting there is a Wacom Display connected. Try a different video connection (you have all these options with HDMI, Display Port and Thunderbolt) and try running on Windows as well to see what happens.


I will have to check on Windows and my other Mac because in my case the only way for the driver to see the WACOM is while it is the main display. The only monitor that is available to calibrate is the main display. I have it connected via Display Port as the others are in use, but I will switch them around and see.



wacom5 wrote:But it has lag. It's just not as perceptible because the pen nib is not directly on screen as it is with a Cintiq. A slight delay can always be expected but perhaps you see more than usual due to your specific setup? The iPad uses a completely different type of pen technology which requires a battery on the Pen and a connection with the iPad via Bluetooth. And there is still lag on the strokes with the Apple pencil even if nearly imperceptible.


When I use my Intuos, the cursor / line remains connected at all times. No matter how fast I move the pen, the pencil will never struggle to keep up unless I bump the stabilization up. When I first purchased Clip Studio it drove me insane until I tweaked some settings. On the Cintiq, both the cursor and the line lag. The pen tip will move, the cursor will be about 13 px behind then about 20 px behind that the line will lag. It isn't specific to my setup as I have seen this same behaviour on this forum and other places.

There may be a point in which Wacom may need to consider if the passive tech they're using is the way forward. In my opinion, drawing on the screen should be more like the iPad where the perception is that your line comes out of the pen tip as it would on paper. Any lag of the cursor or line being drawn creates a disconnect between the artists eyes and hand. People are dealing with it, but I suspect eventually customers will not accept that.

wacom5 wrote:I have done this before and it is possible. You need to drag the bar from the main display to the second display.


Try it at work on Monday. Put your main monitor on the desk and drag the bar to it (primary display). Now, arrange the Wacom below the main monitor so they're stacked on top of each other. This is the most natural position as moving the mouse from the Wacom, directly upwards brings you to your primary monitor. The problem is the dock will now migrate to the Wacom.

What I've had to do is put my Wacom under my secondary monitor, but to get the mouse to my primary monitor I have to take this detour though my secondary monitor. It is quite frustrating. I suspect this is more of an Apple issue than a Wacom one, but it would be nice to sort out.


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